It drives me crazy how many people see a problem like this and are determined to conclude that that problem has only one cause.
So one side decides that the (only) cause is that black people wantonly decide to choose a life of crime when they could just as easily have been upstanding members of society. Ergo, it is all black peoples' fault.
And the other side decides that the (only) cause is that the criminal justice system incarcerates black people disproportionately, exclusively out of racism and bias. Ergo, it is all white peoples' fault.
Why is it so hard to acknowledge that both of these are extreme positions? Both groups of people need to look inward, challenge themselves to fix what is broken, and work together to improve the situation.
On the one hand you can argue there are "systemic" forces which are apparently unquantifiable driving blacks to elevated rates of criminality even after controlling for socio-economic factors. Presumably large, racially discriminatory social programs and cultural programming such as have been tried for the last 40 years are called for to remedy the problem.
On the other hand you can take at face value the reams of data spanning over 80 years showing that across all categories of crime blacks have well over double the white rate. And this pattern holds up internationally, not just in America. We can just accept it as a fact of life and deal with it in a sane way that doesn't waste too much money or wrongly penalize innocent individuals.
> Presumably large, racially discriminatory social programs and cultural programming such as have been tried for the last 40 years are called for to remedy the problem.
There are plenty of obvious things that need fixing, even if you don't believe at all in affirmative action-like programs:
1. Clear conflicts of interest in the criminal justice system, like regular prosecutors being responsible for bringing charges against police, with whom they have close professional and often personal relationships.
2. The unjustifiable war on drugs, which disproportionately affects black communities.
3. Bad behavior by police officers, which likewise disproportionately affects black communities. This is pretty hard to measure because the offenders are the same people who are counting the stats. But we frequently get to see it in shocking display, like when a police officer is caught on video shooting a man who is running away and then planting evidence on him.
The homicide rate for black male victims was 31.67 per 100,000. In comparison, the overall homicide rate for male victims was 7.13 per 100,000. For white male victims, the homicide rate was 3.85 per 100,000.
So I fail to see how behavior by the criminal justice system forces black men to kill each other at a rate that's almost 10x of whites.
Hold on a sec. There are 2 separate issues we have:
1. I completely agree that the issues you raised ARE a problem and should be fixed. 100% with you.
2. At the same time I don't think they are the culprit that's responsible for large black crime rate (with attendant thousands dead and 1m+ in prison).
> I completely agree that the issues you raised ARE a problem and should be fixed. 100% with you.
Great! Common ground.
> At the same time I don't think they are the culprit that's responsible for large black crime rate (with attendant thousands dead and 1m+ in prison).
As I mentioned in my first message, I don't think there is a single "the culprit," I think it is a large and complicated problem with many interrelated causes.
But let's even suppose you're 100% right and the things I mentioned have absolutely nothing to do with the black crime rate. One thing that's pretty much irrefutable is that the vast majority of black America (and many white Americans, such as myself) believe they are a factor. This means that taking active steps towards solving them (which we already agreed should happen) will help build trust between groups, making it much easier to work together towards solutions.
> The unjustifiable war on drugs, which disproportionately affects black communities.
See, this gets to the heart of the matter. I personally think the war on drugs is very stupid, but the data indicates that it does not disproportionately affect blacks. Blacks use drugs at much higher rates than whites and blacks distribute drugs at even higher rates than whites. The prosecutions for narcotics crimes are by all indications commensurate with rates of criminal offense.
It may be dumb law, but it's not racist. Cops and prosecutors are simply doing their jobs. If you think there's a racist conspiracy I dare you to prove it.
I didn't say it was racist. I said it disproportionately affects blacks. Even if it were true that blacks use drugs at higher rates than whites (and this is disputed: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/racial-disparity-dr...), reversing an unjustifiable war that affects blacks the most would be a step towards fixing the problem.
> If you think there's a racist conspiracy I dare you to prove it.
I don't think there's a conspiracy. Few people believe that cops get together and make evil plans about how they can treat black people unjustly.
Here's a bigger point though: I mentioned three things that are clearly broken today, and which fixing would work towards repairing some of the problems we are experiencing today. And instead of finding common ground there, you focused on rebutting an accusation of "conspiracy" -- an accusation I didn't even make.
That, right there, is why we collectively spin our wheels and never really get anywhere.
The studies where they simply poll or ask indicate equivalent or lower black narcotics usage. Every piece of research that uses drug testing reveals well over double the rate of white drugs usage.
This is a lie that needs to die. Blacks get arrested for drugs because they have and use drugs, relative to white people.
It was the same with a huge mess of headlines about blacks getting pulled over on north east highways disproportionately. Finally some work was done with hidef cameras that could show the race of drivers that showed blacks speed at well over double the rate of whites. Black drivers get pulled over disproportionately for dangerous driving because, wait for it, they drive dangerously disproportionately.
I'm also skeptical of the "whites take more drugs" argument. The ratio of black to white drug arrests is roughly the same as the ratio for those of violent crimes, and you can't explain away the violent crime ratio by assuming whites don't get arrested for committing them.
No, it isn't. Racism has to include a positive correlation with race. And not a correlation with a confounding variable. In this case, the rate of offending is the confounding variable.
So one side decides that the (only) cause is that black people wantonly decide to choose a life of crime when they could just as easily have been upstanding members of society. Ergo, it is all black peoples' fault.
And the other side decides that the (only) cause is that the criminal justice system incarcerates black people disproportionately, exclusively out of racism and bias. Ergo, it is all white peoples' fault.
Why is it so hard to acknowledge that both of these are extreme positions? Both groups of people need to look inward, challenge themselves to fix what is broken, and work together to improve the situation.