Like another commenter on this thread, I've lived in the Haight for the past nine years. And while the article is interesting and informative, it doesn't quite paint a full picture (literally—the pictures aren't representative, that girl is not a typical street kid by a long shot, she hasn't slept a day outside in her life. Think camo and combat boots and pit bulls, not peace signs and hacky sacks) of the underside of the street kid scene. There is also a quite a bit of violence and a lot of negativity to be had, both to each other, and to the community that they're visiting.
I see the street kids as guests in our extended home. When everyone is peaceful and respectful I don't really have an issue. But when they are violent, or a health risk (defecation on the sidewalk and on the stoops is a real concern, and it happens all day every day), or harass my family or my neighbors, I do take issue, and believe we need to set and enforce limits for the safety of everyone.
As far as it being a lifestyle _choice_ for some. Indeed it is. But not for all. It's a spectrum. Overall it's a good article, but it's not the whole story.
Edit: And to the author, try walking around and doing those interviews after dark some night. The perspective would be ... different.
And judging from the other comments, people who have no first-hand exposure to this enviroment are simply eating the article up, believing they have the full story. I'd invite anyone who is prepared to generalize about street kid culture based on this one article alone to spend just one /evening/ walking around Haight and Stanyan. Head into the park a ways.
You don't have to go more than 50 yards. I guarantee you take back many of the things you've said on this thread.
Reading the article, I pretty much had the exact same thoughts. It really seemed like the writer had a particular feel-good story in mind ("hippies still live in the Haight!") and went out there trying to find it. The error in the article is casting the entire scene as the same slice of peace-n-love that is espoused in the story, leaving aside -- as you say -- the things that happen after dark. Serious mental illness, the sexual risks inherent in being homeless, run-ins with gangs, disease and the worsening of any future prospects as the "tree of life" is embraced.
I was once similarly enamored with the hippy scene and dated a flower child for quite some time, even visited the commune in Lake county that she grew up in, etc. There is a distinctly darker side of the whole experience whose surface is not even scratched by this article.
I think the point of the article is that it's not as bad, or their word, "Dickensian," as people think. The article is missing some hard numbers: how many are choosing the lifestyle? How many of those that do are engaging in criminal / disruptive activity?
It's pretty cool you got to check out a commune in Lake county.
> It's pretty cool you got to check out a commune in Lake county.
It was a little creepy, to be honest. They have pictorial banners up in the woods, without any words. I was only allowed into the bookshop, and every single book and CD was by the commune leader. Every single one.
Edit: I'll add some detail here since people seem to be interested. Lake County is a very, very remote area a few hours north of San Francisco. The commune has been functional since the 60s, sucking up its members' wealth in exchange for living under the direction of a charismatic leader. While a generation lived under this leader's direction, their children suffered the brunt of the eccentricity and thoughtlessness that the era inculcated. The one incident that I recall hearing about is when several children (including the person I was dating) in the 8-12 age range were randomly ordered to live with different parents on a whim, and the families complied. A significant fraction of the kids of that generation are somewhat screwed up, with causes ranging from heroin addiction to the effects of sexual abuse as children. It put a very dark tint on the rainbow of the 60s for me.
Whenever I read the good, realist observations of the dark underbelly of hippy culture, I always think of the movie "Easy Rider" which explored some of that effectively.
The writer was duped. There is quite a chasm between the flower child from Novato coming down for the weekend to trade peace patches for shrooms and the addict gutter punk types who live there permanently.
Those people are scary. The writer might have actually had to work at getting his story, rather than collecting anecdotes from those that have romanticized the lifestyle.
True tho perhaps you need some folks closer to the edge to ensure the avail of substances people further out won't touch en masse. Ultimately some edge players are needed to give everyone access which ensures the greater scene. Legalize and this wouldn't need to be the case
I'm also a long time resident of the neighborhood, and agree with my neighbors sentiments - the article is interesting and informative, but in no way speaks to the day to day (or more importantly, night to night) life of interactions between the local homeless and the rest of the community. As an example, the sit/lie measure was in part prompted by a violent attack on a local resident. And if you've every walked down Haight with a woman (or are one yourself), the obscenities and outright harassment that the less flowery members of the homeless community will offer will shock you.
Presumably because he either pays property taxes or pays rent to someone who uses it to pay property taxes.
Fundamentally, one can see people living on the street as belonging to a complex subgroup in our society: one which can be both symbiotic and parasitical.
It is symbiotic in the sense that it provides a culture with which many can identify, especially those who have experienced hardship or difficult home lives as children. In this way street communities can provide a sense of catharsis -- almost a group therapy session. Belonging to a community can provide mental comfort which can seem even more important than physical comfort. In other words, street communities can take our tired, our poor, our huddled masses yearning to breathe free.
However, in many cases they can also be parasitical. Consuming societies' group benefits, in a way similar to herd immunity, while also spreading danger in the community, either through violence or excessive drug use.
I think what many people, both in the street communities and not, may fail to realize is that it is entirely possible that a street community can represent a local optimum, but not a global one. There may be a way to provide people both the sense of community they desire and a way to integrate them into the larger community so that they can contribute in more impactful ways.
There's an old wobbly story: A wobbly was riding a freight train across the midwest one summer, in between jobs. The train sided out in the middle of nowhere, and it was scorching hot, so the wobbly got off the train and started walking down a dirt road.
After a couple of miles, the road passed by an apple orchard. The wobbly hopped over the fence, and sat down to rest under the shade of a big apple tree.
The wobbly sat there enjoying the shade for 20 minutes, until a farmer came across him. "You can't be here!" exclaimed the farmer, "This is my land!"
The wobbly looked up at the farmer and asked "Really? What makes it your land?"
"What are you talking about you dirty tramp, I inherited it from my father!" replied the farmer, almost bewildered at such an indignant question.
"Hmm, and what made it his land?" asked the wobbly.
"Why, he inherited it from his father!" replied the farmer, now really angry. "It's been in my family for three generations!"
"And what made it your grandfather's land?" asked the wobbly.
The farmer, now barely able to contain himself, yelled proudly "Why! My grandpappy fought the indians for it!"
The wobbly nodded, stood up, pulled back his sleeves, and replied "Uh huh. Then I'll fight you for it, right now."
The point being that a lot of these conceptions about who belongs and who doesn't are based on private property, but that there fundamentally isn't any real justification for private property. Even John Locke's attempts to justify it break down.
I can understand two groups being in conflict with each-other, but I can't understand conceptualizing one as the "guests" of the other group simply because they don't own property.
Here's a justification for private property. How will there ever be an orchard otherwise? Orchards don't just burst spontaneously into existence.
Imagine that no one 'fought the natives for it'. Instead the land was a vacant waste with no one living there and nothing growing there. Over the years through hard work, dedication and sacrifice the land was amended and the trees grew creating the orchard. The only thing the farmer asked for in return was to sell his surplus. Lowering the cost of apples to all.
Then some jackass jumps off a train and expects it all handed to him for free or he'll attack the farmer.
I can understand the idea of not wanting to participate in a capitalist system, but I can't understand what makes someone 'evil' just because they've created something that you haven't.
A nice turnaround, but in the story, the land wasn't a vacant waste, it was acquired by force. The story isn't "Oh, you moved into emptiness and created something, so I'll fight you", it was "you fought the people here before, so I'll continue with your method of ownership".
Similarly, the wobbly wasn't demanding an apple, but enjoying the shade. Was the farmer selling shade? Lowering the cost of shade to all?
The idea of a one-sided "fuck off, this is MY land" seems to be a new-world Anglo thing - back in Europe a lot of countries have a form of right to roam that sits in conflict with property rights. While there is certainly a 'my land!' aspect, there's also the competing philosophical idea that people are free to travel over it or use it recreationally
Also in Europe we had common land, and while you can argue about the tragedy of the commons, enclosure destroyed many peoples only source of livelihood.
It wasn't acquired by force by the farmer, it was acquired by force by the great grandfather.
Either way, you disprove your own point. The farmer has a more legitimate claim because he worked for it, he didn't attack someone for it like the guy who showed up wants to.
> Imagine that no one 'fought the natives for it'. Instead the land was a vacant waste with no one living there and nothing growing there.
Dear Randian,
These statements imply that you consider the native people "no one" and native vegetation rather than industrial crops "a vacant waste". I think those are rude presumptions.
I like this rhetorical technique: completely alter the story then craft an argument based on your version of the story.
In the less artificial world (where orchards are not usually created out of barren moonscapes)- it's always a little odd - and self-serving - the degree to which people think improving land magically cancels all previous taint of expropriation.
> Instead the land was a vacant waste with no one living there and nothing growing there.
Funny that is the childish misconception I had as a child about America before settlers came here. Just an empty lush land, as gift of God, waiting to embrace its new owners.
Preach, brother. SF didn't spring magically into existence either -- it was built once, then destroyed in a quake, and then built again.
I think that things don't have to stop at the orchard. Years ago, there used to be a big flophouse on Columbus Ave, full of trash and indigents. Transients. Beat "poets", the sort of people glorified by City Lights books.
And then they tore it down and built the TransAmerica pyramid! Now that's progress.
I don't see why you need a broad intellectual foundation here. Property is granted by governments. Why? Because it's a useful abstraction. Where did the government get the property? It claimed it and enforced its claim by force.
So I guess my answer to the story would be: fine, you can fight the owner for it, but the real owner isn't me, it's the United States government. If you are so inclined to fight the government, fine, but don't be surprised when people who find the abstraction useful and productive, or even simply find the other mechanisms of the government productive, decide to fight back.
> Property is granted by governments. Why? Because it's a useful abstraction.
This is where that 'broad intellectual foundation' comes in. You may think that it is, sure, but why? Not everyone does, and there's a whole lot of philosophical discussion on this very topic. Our conception of 'private property' has only been around ~200 years, and humanity's been around just a bit more than that.
I'm a pragmatist. I find the philosophical 'discussion' on the metaphysical "purpose" of private property to be uninteresting and mostly worthless.
I am, however, perfectly willing to entertain many possible critiques, if they are shown to be practical and better than the alternatives. Feudal property law, for example, I don't find to be nearly as flexible or efficient (which was around for quite a while, as well). It's no accident that our notions of property came into greater strength with the industrial revolution. If you look at the states with both strong public and private property systems, like the Scandinavians, you'll find that our system has also been far from static.
Speaking as someone with a minor in philosophy, I have to agree with Paul Graham[1] that unfocused philosophy based on general principles (like "what is 'property?'") is terribly useless. If you want to make a difference, innovate.
I never said I disagreed with Marx's critique! However, I would note that goal and result are not necessarily the same.
I would say Marx succeeded in producing a lot of interesting practical results which could actually be implemented. On the other hand, some of his stuff smacks more of religion than it does of praxis. His "law of value," for example, seems very unfalsifiable, in a sense. He speaks of the approach to true value when supply and demand equilibriate, but his conditions of equilibrium are often either poorly defined or simply tautological (e.g., the true value of a good is when it meshes with the law of value, thus the law of value is the true value of commodities).
Indeed, many of Marx's ideas have been through the crucible. Some, like a command economy, have mostly been burned to disintegration. Others, like the provision of health care to anyone who needs it, financed by the people according to their ability, seems to have had huge success among most of the civilized world.
All in all, I don't have problems with Marx's approach, just the idea that rehashing ideas from a century ago in pretty much identical ways counts as innovation.
... yes, I meant exactly 200 years, to the letter. Obviously. The tilde, which is generally taken to mean 'approximate', was absolutely superflous. In a thread about John Locke's conception of property and its effects on modern day states, I plant the turning point at 1813. You got me.
(the ~200 figure comes from the Inclosure acts, which, as Wikipedia says, "the majority were passed between 1750 and 1860". Even that is obviously a rough time period, and only one of many significant historical events. Even if we take Locke's birthday, 29 August 1632, as the birth of private property in the current sense, that's still roughly 380 years ago, which is still pretty new as far as human history goes.)
Property isn't a philosophical or legal concept. It's a practical aspect of human psychology that has always existed. If you've ever watched two kids fight over an ice cream cone you've witnessed private property in action. People aren't emotionless robots or hyper-rational homo economi. If you can't be bothered to learn even a little bit about humanity, your political philosophies will be every bit as disastrous as Bolshevism (and Castroism, and whatever the hell North Korea does).
Even if we just want to talk about private property as a legal institution, we can go back at least to the code of Hammurabi, and probably further if I could be bothered to do the research, which I can't. Even during the middle ages there was an active merchant class. And arguably feudalism is just the extension of the property concept to encompass ownership of people.
Property has not always existed and it's not a fundamental "aspect of human psychology". If you said possession, I'd probably agree with you but you could say the same thing about sharing and cooperation.
While I am on your side in the sense that we both agree that private property exists and is necessary, I think it's very dangerous to assume that property only exists when there is a government to enforce it. Furthermore, you seem to assume that only governments can own property and that the 'delegate' the ownership to citizens as it were - a point I take offense with, I am the owner of all my property, any government be damned.
Government grants private property by agreeing to defend your exclusive use of it, and by dictating the conditions under which it will maintain or terminate that exclusive use.
If you find that you have the ability to defend your exclusive use of something, you're either appealing to a sovereign, or you have become a sovereign. To be a sovereign, you need a very large stick.
I imagine the wobbly will quite happily let the farmer go and get a representative of the US government for him to fight. Likely he will have naturally moved on before such a representative responds to 'someone is enjoying my shade against my will!'
It's a sad world we live in when "sitting in the shade" is called a crime - and imply that it's bad people aren't getting 'caught' for such trivial things.
I mean, if we're talking about absurdity of points, you are saying that a single travelling poor man sitting in the shade is something that is worthy of invoking the power of the federal government to combat.
"sitting in the shade" is not the crime; trespass is the crime.
The concept of private property is useful enough on the whole that governments are willing to enforce it, and leave discretion for right-of-access to the owner of said property. This allows the property owner to assess people in terms of risk they pose to said property and either grant or deny access.
If said farmer has had problems with transients damaging his property in the past, he will certainly appreciate the right to deny access, with the power of the government backing the decision.
but the real owner isn't me, it's the United States government - Locke1689, 5 hours ago
I am not an American, but I've been online for nearly 20 years now, and I've seen a lot of US politics pass under the bridge. I've never seen anything that goes contrary to the notion that 'the United States government' is 'the federal government [of the US]'. The two terms are used interchangably in online discourse in my experience.
If I am wrong in this, can you please provide me with some links to explain how 'the federal government' of the US is a different entity to the 'the United States government'. I'd be very interested to read them, because it would be a very curious oddity in the way politics are described over there. Does 'the federal government' operate at a higher or lower level than 'the United States government', or do they operate in parallel? It's an intriguing concept.
The fact that you're arguing over the synonymous/non-synonymous semantics of two phrases, rather than actually refuting locke's main point, says a great deal about your argument.
Can you please point out Locke's 'main' point, because it seems he's danced around a few topics to me.
If you're talking about the parent of my last comment, it should be abundantly clear that I'm saying 'no, you did', which is directly refuting his point, with a quote, no less. The rest was a bit of poetic license called 'taking the piss'.
What the hell? I hope you're not an American -- if civics and government class has so failed our students i would be extremely disappointed.
The government of the united States is exactly that, ranging from the lowest town council member to the President. You do understand the concept of sets and subsets, right? The federal government is a subset of the government. That's why it has that additional qualifier.
That's OK, I don't buy your attempt to be seen as educated on the topic.
Your post is basically, "I don't really know anything, but I sure do read a lot of blogs." If you're actually interested in US govt. & politics open a first year textbook. The Constitution (and amendments) quite clearly describe the subdivision of governmental powers into 4 different areas: the legislative, the executive, the judicial, and the states.
Nice rebuttal: "Oh, it'll say it in this physical resource that you won't have access to".
Looking through google for 'the United States Government', most of the results refer to the three branches, but describe other powers as falling to the states as a different entity, if they're described at all. Certainly if you look at news sources for terms like "called on the United States government", they're all federal-style issues, not state - state issues tend to be specified as such.
You may also want to change the leading paragraph of the Wikipedia article, since it's peddling the "I don't really know anything" viewpoint, given how powerful WP is as a source.
So, as I asked, do you have any reliable, definitive resources I can actually access, or are you content to just call me uneducated with a lazy, hand-wavy dismissal? I'm happy to be proven wrong, but not in the lazy way you're going about it.
'James Madison asserted that the states and national government "are in fact but different agents and trustees of the people, constituted with different powers."'
>The point being that a lot of these conceptions about who belongs and who doesn't are based on private property, but that there fundamentally isn't any real justification for private property. Even John Locke's attempts to justify it break down.
Probably because he produces the value that makes the land a desirable place to mooch, while the street kids don't produce any of the value that makes it desirable place for him to sell his services to others.
And unlike in your Wobbly story, they wouldn't be able to produce that same value "if only" the greedy OP quit hogging that land he lives and works on.
You ever wonder why the street kids don't exercise their freedom to roam in less wealthy areas? Food for thought.
This isn't entirely true. While the street kids aren't specifically responsible for the neighborhood's legacy, they are part of a line that has given the neighborhood a certain magic for tourists and nostalgics anyway
Probably because he contributes to society in his local neighborhood, likely cleaning up the steps that they so eloquently defecate upon. Paying the taxes that keep the green grass growing in the parks they chill in.
The way I see it is that we're all guests in any new environment when we first get there. Over time, after investing love blood sweat energy tears, these places gradually become our homes. Sometimes it feels like it happens fast, sometimes it feels like it takes forever. Sometimes we are embraced by whomever is there before. Sometimes we're not and we displace (ask me how I felt moving to Avenue D back in the day). Sometimes we're not and we're the ones displaced.
For me personally, the Haight didn't start feeling at all like home for quite a long time. Years. But over time I started recognizing the shopowners. Getting to know them, their names, where they lived, what was on their mind. And my neighbors (those that stay long enough to get to know). And the cops (on the rare occasion you saw one). And the postal carrier. And the street cleaning crew. Etc.
And, especially relevant to this thread, I began to recognize the local transients. I might see a handful guys over and over again who have been walking the streets of our neighborhood for a decade or more. (Which I guess technically makes them in-transient, but they're likely not under the same roof every night like I am.) This is their home, too.
But what I don't see is the same faces among the street kids. I see new kids every day. They're here one day, gone the next. It's rare that I'd see a kid last a week. Maybe a handful I've seen come back after a year or two. But that's the exception, not the norm.
So my point about it being "our extended home" is that, after these many years, love or hate the Haight, it has become my home, and it is the home for the others that have invested something of their lives in our neighborhood.
For most of these street kids, the ones the author is writing about, the ones that I see every day, they don't consider it home. They don't treat it as their home. But I do. And so do my neighbors.
Does that explain it a bit better?
Edit: Moxie in another comment mentions the (true) squatter scene, which is a very important (and itself diverse) subculture to recognize. I agree completely. I'd suggest that the Haight is also their home as much as it is mine. Hell, a million times moreso if we're talking actual blood sweat and tears.
Thanks, this is excellent insight. My current role is as a business owner in Oakland. Many of the "transients" are fixtures of the neighborhood. Some we allow to charge their cellphones in the store, with others we call 911 as soon as they come in. The guest metaphor is interesting, but difficult to apply in the case of overlayed and possibly incompatible subcommunities.
"But they all stayed for the same reason: They found a community..."
Ridiculous.
As a youth, I had a lot of contact with homeless teens. (I was bounced around a lot, but not quite homeless.) Many were kicked out (homosexual), many more were escaping (domestic violence, pedophilia, rape), a few were "free spirits" (or merely didn't feel the need to share their stories).
My SO volunteers at a local homeless teen shelter. The kids she encounters have had terrible lives thus far. Not many happy stories there.
My city tries to do more than the norm for homeless people. Women, children, teens, vets, mentally ill. It's an uphill battle. The ones that are just down on their luck have the tools and resources to bounce back. The rest aren't so fortunate.
In addition to your suggestion, the author should volunteer at a shelter or mission. As a rule, the people we see are just a fraction of the homeless, the panhandlers an even smaller percentage.
There appears to be some goofy stuff in there, but giving them somewhere to defecate so they don't do it where I'd like to walk would be worth every penny. This is basic public health stuff.
I see the street kids as guests in our extended home. When everyone is peaceful and respectful I don't really have an issue. But when they are violent, or a health risk (defecation on the sidewalk and on the stoops is a real concern, and it happens all day every day), or harass my family or my neighbors, I do take issue, and believe we need to set and enforce limits for the safety of everyone.
As far as it being a lifestyle _choice_ for some. Indeed it is. But not for all. It's a spectrum. Overall it's a good article, but it's not the whole story.
Edit: And to the author, try walking around and doing those interviews after dark some night. The perspective would be ... different.