Yes. I am not a great programmer. I only started caring about it a couple of years ago and since I don't have a real education in it I am very behind in many areas. I am trying to get better, but it's not easy.
"No one is born a mediocre programmer. It's a choice."
I don't know if I agree with this. Some people are born with incredible talent in various areas. Some people are just born musicians, others athletes, others programmers. There is no substitute for hard work, but some people will never be able to grasp what others can do. No matter how long you play guitar, you're not going to be Jimi Hendrix.
I understand your sentiment, I really do. But I would be careful of calling misinformed people lazy. I would bet good money that there are "standards" I am breaking with my code that I don't even know exist. If the books I read or the sites I visit haven't told me about them, I wouldn't call myself lazy.
In the end, HN is a community of amazingly talented people who are, to me, beyond brilliant. I think it's easy to lose sight of the "real world" some times when there are so many smart people in one room. Just have a little bit more slack for people who are trying and not as good as you. I think you will find it explains a lot.
"Some of us choose to write clear, effective, easy to maintain code without a framework. If you ever have to maintain my code, perhaps you'll understand."
Do you "choose" to do that, or are you benefiting from the years of education and experience you have? It's not like I can wake up tomorrow and choose to be an expert programmer. I can only try to keep learning(which is why I hang around here). I completely understand your frustrations with work, it can be a pain in the ass to deal with people who make your work harder through their incompetence, but I don't think it's as deliberate as you are suggesting it is.
As my boss used to say, "the best people I've worked with have all been self taught." I've found this to be true myself. A college degree (especially (?) in CS) is not the cause of, nor (in my experience) even correlated with, great programming. I think even being aware of and caring about the issues that have been mentioned makes one above average, even if you don't (yet) have the experience to solve it all.
...don't have a real education in it I am very behind in many areas...
Who isn't? Don't sell yourself short.
No matter how long you play guitar, you're not going to be Jimi Hendrix.
You don't have to code like Jimi Hendrix to be a great programmer. (Oddly, I suspect that if I had to maintain his code, I'd probably be going nuts.) You just have to get your job done, work well with others, and leave something maintainable behind. I have a feeling you're already there. I also have a feeling that everyone reading this has done something cool that neither one of us has ever even thought of. In our field, not knowing something isn't a problem, it's an opportunity.
I understand your sentiment, I really do. But I would be careful of calling misinformed people lazy. I would bet good money that there are "standards" I am breaking with my code that I don't even know exist. If the books I read or the sites I visit haven't told me about them, I wouldn't call myself lazy.
I agree completely. I'd give you an extra up vote for that response if I could.
...are you benefiting from the years of education and experience you have?
Of course. We all are. Not benefiting from any education or experience you have oughta be a crime.
It's not like I can wake up tomorrow and choose to be an expert programmer.
Right. Give it a week or two. If you code as well as you comment here, you're probably way better than you give yourself credit for.
In the back of my mind, I thought there was a chance my remarks would be controversial when I first entered them. Sometimes it's fun to push the envelope here. (Remember, I'm in the middle of Day 4 of regression testing someone else's crap.) You proved me right.
As far as OP is concerned, I still think of frameworks and 4th generation languages as "crutches" for a lot of us. So they serve their purpose. But at a cost many others have talked about here.
Thanks for the great discussion, chez17. I'll make a point to look for you in future posts.
I probably do sell myself a little short, but again hanging around here it's not that hard to do. In the end, I probably reacted a little strongly, this is a community of experts and you were venting. I doubt you go stomping around the office yelling at people when they make mistakes. Thank you for a good discussion as well.
The humility in your attitude is the mark of a good programmer, not a bad one. If you really are learning and working hard at it, you'll do fine, and I'd rather have you on my team than a lot of the (apparently) super-smart guys you're feeling inferior to.
A nice thing about the programming world is that it's a sort of natural democracy. No one really knows how good they are.
"The humility in your attitude is the mark of a good programmer, not a bad one. If you really are learning and working hard at it, you'll do fine, and I'd rather have you on my team than a lot of the (apparently) super-smart guys you're feeling inferior to."
"Yes. I am not a great programmer. I only started caring about it a couple of years ago and since I don't have a real education in it I am very behind in many areas. I am trying to get better, but it's not easy."
You've just put yourself ahead of 95% of the millenials here by saying that. The only way to become great at ANYTHING is to admit that you aren't, and work on improving yourself.
Being junior isn't a bad thing. Everyone starts at the beginning, even the prodigies. The bad ones are juniors that attempt to skip the learning process by claiming to be great, not the ones who do like you are and put in the effort to learn.
The difference between you and the typical millenial, at least the ones that I've had the misfortune of working with over the years, is that they think they're good, and don't listen to the folks around them who've actually DONE the work before.
"I don't know if I agree with this. Some people are born with incredible talent in various areas."
The only talent humans are born with is the ability to construct their own future.
Those who lack talent and experience often believe that success is predicated on luck. They see spectacular photographs taken in times of perfect light, and say, "Wow, you were so lucky to get such gorgeous light right when you were there with your camera!"
The smart ones eventually come to realize that you make your own luck.
I think if you hang out with "programmers" long enough, you'll learn that the worst ones spend the majority of their time complaining about the shortcomings of others' "programming" techniques or methodologies. In reality, there is no de facto standard modus operandi for the nirvana of any code, and if you want to learn, it's best to just keep an open mind.
Yes. I am not a great programmer. I only started caring about it a couple of years ago and since I don't have a real education in it I am very behind in many areas. I am trying to get better, but it's not easy.
"No one is born a mediocre programmer. It's a choice."
I don't know if I agree with this. Some people are born with incredible talent in various areas. Some people are just born musicians, others athletes, others programmers. There is no substitute for hard work, but some people will never be able to grasp what others can do. No matter how long you play guitar, you're not going to be Jimi Hendrix.
I understand your sentiment, I really do. But I would be careful of calling misinformed people lazy. I would bet good money that there are "standards" I am breaking with my code that I don't even know exist. If the books I read or the sites I visit haven't told me about them, I wouldn't call myself lazy.
In the end, HN is a community of amazingly talented people who are, to me, beyond brilliant. I think it's easy to lose sight of the "real world" some times when there are so many smart people in one room. Just have a little bit more slack for people who are trying and not as good as you. I think you will find it explains a lot.
"Some of us choose to write clear, effective, easy to maintain code without a framework. If you ever have to maintain my code, perhaps you'll understand."
Do you "choose" to do that, or are you benefiting from the years of education and experience you have? It's not like I can wake up tomorrow and choose to be an expert programmer. I can only try to keep learning(which is why I hang around here). I completely understand your frustrations with work, it can be a pain in the ass to deal with people who make your work harder through their incompetence, but I don't think it's as deliberate as you are suggesting it is.