> Get takeout. No reasonable person expects you to tip your restaurant worker when you get takeout. So one way to avoid leaving a gratuity is to get your next restaurant meal to go.
This is a way to avoid tipping if and only if you're comfortable manually selecting "no tip". It doesn't matter if you're ordering online or at the counter, you will be prompted for a tip these days when ordering takeout, often with some obscene percentage preselected that you have to opt out of.
As multiple people noted in the article, this tendency has done more to exhaust people of tipping than anything else. A tip jar is nonconfrontational and just gives an easy way to give extra if you want to. But these terminals are turning tipping into something that is actively stressful for a lot of people.
The only bright side I see is that by completely exhausting everyone they might be responsible for ending the practice everywhere and forcing restaurants to pay a wage.
2 days ago I ordered online, tipped and paid online. When I arrived I had to sign a receipt that had a line labeled Additional Tip. The system knew I had tipped but wanted to try squeeze me again!
I think it's permissable in cases where you'd normally pay before the service and it's a type of service that is a low-dollar amount and something you'd do frequently instead of a one-off. An example would be a sandwich shop you go to every week. The reasoning would be that since it's cheap and frequent, those receiving the tip have an incentive today to deliver good service because they'd like you to continue tipping in the future.
It's not a tip, it's a bribe. You can tell people perceive it as a bribe because they speculate about what would happen if you don't 'tip'. In the most tame speculation you get people like the parent who expect they'll get better service for tipping ahead (implicitly, you'll get worse service if you don't). On the other extreme are fears about employees doing something awful to your food.
Neither tipping or bribing is healthy because both are built on a social contract that can be voided by one party without much consequence—the only difference is which party is in a position to void the contract after reaping the benefits.
I think you’re overestimating the smarts of these systems. They print out a common template for the receipt. It has no idea that you tipped already and the tip line is just part of the template.
What ever happened to the cash discount for pickup orders? It was like a negative tip and everyone was happy (restauranteur voided the sale and made more money as well)
> “Tipping should be based on exceptional service,” she says. “It’s not an entitlement.”
For sit-down restaurants, tipping is a cultural convention that was adopted long ago, and has been baked into pricing, wages, and sometimes even taxes.
Someone might make an argument that it'd be better to have a different cultural convention.
But simply ignoring the actual cultural convention would be a big deal, adversely affecting the livelihoods of many low-income people.
There is no way to change it other than to ignore it. Are you imagining some cultural council you can appeal to to change it? The culture is nothing but thousands of individual decisions.
> There is no way to change it other than to ignore it.
Couldn't one change the culture without freeloading off of where it's baked in?
For example, publicize your preferred convention, and then give your business to restaurants that decide to satisfy the demand for that convention.
If people don't flock to those restaurants, then maybe that wasn't a viable cultural change.
Or maybe the objection wasn't impassioned philosophical position on the optimal economic model, but rather that they simply wanted to pay less, and blaming a questionable custom was a convenient loophole.
I've seen this enforced by the number of persons in your party (say, 6 minimum). If you come in with a ton of people at an establishment that expects tips, make a ton of noise, traumatize the front staff, completely destroy the place, then leave and tip 5%? I like the idea of an establishment financially protecting their employees that way.
Mandatory service charges cannot be counted as tip in California and must be reported as restaurant income. Also, the tipped minimum wage is no different from non-tipped minimum wage in California.
People deserve to be compensated extra for an hour of not being able to lean against the counter, playing with their phone? It's traumatizing to have a lot of business and have to work?
The standard in business is that more volume brings about discounts. If you buy a larger order of parts from a supplier, your unit price is less than if you buy a small number.
The only way surcharges for groups make sense is that groups can sometimes tie up the place due to staying longer, but that's a stretch. Groups also have a way of finishing up and getting the hell out, not much slower than someone dining alone.
Every group lunch I remember, there have always been drinks, all round. Almost everyone has at least one glass of beer, save for the odd teetotalers and designated drivers.
I will typically not order a beer if dining alone, or just with family.
You have a big group, with everyone ordering food and most of them drinks (easy money) yet want an extra tax on top.
The problem is America is that tipping has become a norm, and it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle.
You have 3 parties with non-aligned goals.
Staff will optimize for earnings, so they actually prefer tips. Many oppose a minimum livable wage (keyword being "minimum", which often ends up being much lower than tipped wages).
Customers will optimize for cost while having the peace of mind that workers are getting paid a living wage, so they prefer restaurant owners pay their staff a minimum livable wage, but not any higher than that so they can enjoy meals at a reasonable cost.
Restaurant owners are trying to optimize their cost, so they want to minimize cost of operations, which means paying their workers as little as legally required, and have the customer cover the rest by tipping (which is discretionary and governed by norms).
The equilibrium -- at least in America -- is found in a reasonable level of tipping.
Restaurant owners have tried no-tip policy. They can’t get good servers because they’d rather work for tips. I know servers who make six figures from tips alone…
This is known as a market failure and it's what the government is for. It will likely never happen, but we need legislation to end tipping in an entire market all at once.
You can't really prevent one person (a customer) from handing another person (the server) some money as recognition of good service, or because he thinks the server is cute, or because it makes him feel good, or whatever.
California has a very high mandatory minimum compared to Federal minimum wage. Yet, tipping exists and it seems servers prefer that over a higher wage.
I've always presumed that a large part of this is tax evasion. Cash tips are legally required to be reported as income, but I'd guessing that they are very rarely reported in full. The increase in salary would have to be quite a bit higher than the amount lost in tips to make up the difference. I'm base my guess on my personal experience, but I could be wrong. Does anyone have numbers that would prove or disprove this?
Because staff prefers tips over a liveable wage. Perhaps, other countries can experiment with America's way and let the staff decide for itself?
For example -
"The restaurant industry in America is unique, and survey data proves that both tipped workers and the public prefer it as well. Restaurant workers often look at ourselves as commission-based sales people..." (https://www.restaurantworkersofamerica.org/faq)
"The switch to a no-tip, 25%-surcharge model at world-famous Zuni Cafe has done wonders for the wages of kitchen staff. But very few of the veteran servers remain who worked at the restaurant when the tips were taken away, and those who work there now are still complaining." (https://sfist.com/2022/07/28/90-of-zuni-servers-have-left-th...)
I agree. But I don’t think you’ve worked at restaurants in so many countries to make that statement even in general, let alone universally. Restaurant workers are underpaid in most countries, especially in Asia. Servers in Beijing used to sleep on the floor of their restaurants since their wages could barely afford to actually rent anything in the city.
No topping is good in theory but it won't stick. Restaurants have tried it and no one is happy with it. Customers get higher prices. Many employees feel they can make more money with tips and employers have to pay higher salaries.
What's becoming a problem is that many businesses that weren't tip-related are suddenly requesting tips for service. Those are the ones that people should not tip. There's no need to expand the number of services that need to be tipped.
> What's becoming a problem is that many businesses that weren't tip-related are suddenly requesting tips for service.
Who gets to decide?
I think the only absurd thing is making it a percentage of the cost. Why do I tip someone more for doing the same job because my meal/service is more expensive?
It's often not the same job behind the scenes. Your more expensive meal typically requires more effort to prepare. The other function of cost is drinks and if you order more drinks then you require more service.
Neither of which matter as the labor for production of said meal and drinks does not benefit from the tip, it is instead the person who takes your order and carries it to the table.
Tips get pooled. Only in very expensive restaurants does the chef fully prepare your plate. Arranging that your table gets all it's meals at once is not as simple as you might think it is.
If you've not seen how the back of house functions you may have some misconceptions about the sources of labor involved in your meal.
This is a generalization that isn’t universally true. I’ve known so many restaurants where the servers keep their tips. The whole point of this thread was that the means of application are inconsistent and arbitrary.
I don’t care about tip amount? Howevery, I think you’re being pretty stingy with a 10% tip. I always tip 20% or more at sitdown places. The pain of potential social reproach is far greater to me than 20% the cost of my meal which I already knew would be part of the cost of going. Mechanically it is easy, move decimal left, multiply by 2.
I want to know how it works! You’ve told me I’m ignorant and that’s fine, I’m too invested in my current career to get a job in a kitchen right now, and you seem to know, so go ahead and educate.
Who gets my tip and how is it divided? I’ve always assumed it goes entirely to the waitstaff (pooled or not). It seems like maybe it should be distributed to other people who make the service happen. Does the dishwasher get a cut? What about the line cooks?
For example, when I go to a restaurant serving steaks, the job isn't significantly different from one steak to another, but the cost can be significantly different.
Preparing a ribeye vs. a t-bone vs. a sirloin isn't all that different, but you can expect the prices on each to vary wildly, mostly due to the cost of materials. Rationally, neither the wait staff nor the chef really deserve more of a tip for one vs. the other, but the convention demands it.
This is why it has to be legislation that simultaneously forces the entire market to stop it at once. That may not ever happen, but these terminals at fast casual takeout places are definitely starting to build consensus against tipping.
> What's becoming a problem is that many businesses that weren't tip-related are suddenly requesting tips for service. Those are the ones that people should not tip.
The problem is that the line between where tipping is required is incredibly difficult for people to understand. It used to be that if they asked you to enter a tip that meant that the employee wasn't getting a living wage unless you gave something. Now you can't use that, and all the "simple" ways that people say you can know are just confusing to most people. The result is that people have to either make a random decision or consistently tip everywhere or nowhere, and everywhere isn't financially possible.
By following this analogy, what would stop us (in IT) from requesting tips when we are not happy with our salary?
This tipping madness should stop and is IMHO US specific - I don't see that the rest of the world sees tipping as something "by default", and in many countries tipping is even disrespectful.
I tip at sit down restaurants, the coffee shop where I'm a regular, valets, and people who touch my body (hair stylist, massage therapist, waxing etc). That's it, that's the list.
I pretty much only tip at sit down places now. I dont tip at the coffee shop, but then again I just drink black coffee so there is nothing to do other than fill up the cup and I'm not going to tip for that. Why do you tip at the coffee shop, but say not at a fast food joint? It seems to me there is as much work and skill assembling a burger as foaming milk.
When I was a regular at a breakfast shop (it wasn't a "coffee shop") it was well before this automated payment terminal checkout forced tip stuff. I did not tip at all but instead would gift the counter staff mini champagne bottles during the holidays.
Love your policy. I think it’s a good stating point for my own. Do you mind sharing amounts if you are comfortable? I’m 15% for good service at sit down restaurants as that’s how I was raised, 20% for hair stylists so I can build a positive long term relationship. Avoid valeting as much as possible but the fee should be the tip for that IMO
Standard tip for "good" service at a restaurant used to be 15%. At some point it went up to 18, then 20, and I've been to places where the "default" on the payment terminal is 25%.
If the stylist owns the salon, no tip. If the stylist is renting a chair there, then tip according to your motivations.
I’d like to see tipping just banned outright so we can do away with discriminatory compensation (tips can vary by race and other factors), and have proper living wages that are guaranteed by employers. It’s gotten to an absurd point where everyone expects tipping now - like plumbers and movers and other stuff. Soon I expect my bank will show a tip prompt on their website.
I agree that banning tipping should be considered. I haven’t seen it mentioned in this thread yet but the payment terminals of course benefit from the tipping options because the transaction amount grows as does they amount they get from the percentage based portion of their transaction fee. If I had to guess, adding this option for all restaurants probably increases their amount processed by 3-5%
I didn't mean their cut was that high, I'm estimating the total amount $ processed raised by that percentage due to easier and more persistent tipping options
The code allows for a lower minimum wage when tips are involved.
Getting rid of this complication in the tax code would make owning restaurants harder, but fix other societal issues.
Can’t say it’s be an easy decision or trade off to make - a lot of restaurants wouldn’t be able to stay in business and those who like eating out would have a lot less and more expensive choices.
If you stop tipping they'll spit in your food or rate you down on Uber. Once I didn't tip at a semi upscale restaurant and the waiter followed our group down the street and asked me why not quite upset. I explained the food took three hours to be served and was terrible but he already knew that, the point was embarrassment.
You have to tip. It's not really a request. That said, a custom gifting a few dollars to those working brutal menial jobs isn't such a tragedy. What we need is a mechanism where servers can be tipped directly bypassing management. Could be just a QR code badge linked to stripe fast checkout.
I imagine a waiter living off Costco hotdogs and soda standing eight hours a day holding a jug of ice water and a game face with the heat of the kitchen to his back wondering if he can make both rent and the car payments. Watching groups of businessmen and beautiful women eat $300 meals leaving half of the food uneaten. It's emasculating, cruel. There needs to be something like the tipping custom. That kind if experience can build real resentment
If you have to tip, it's not a tip anymore.
As a european I never understood tip system. The restaurant is already paying the waiver, isn't it? If not, the problem lays there, not on the tips. I'm not tipped when I do a good job at maintaining a IT system providing few dozens millions € of revenues, it's my job and I'm paid for that.
Basically, the issue of wages is not my problem, so this whole discussion becomes absurd. Do I want to leave compensation for the worker? Does he deserve an extra out of my pocket? Did he do something for me that exceeds his job functions and I can appreciate? If he brings me a plate of food for which I'm going to be charged, it is unlikely to fall under these conditions.
During early Covid, when I'd get grocery delivery from a company that happened to be known for often treating employees badly, I'd tip much more than the default. Because they deserved it and more. But a side benefit was the amusement of imagining the CEO getting pissed off that a worker was getting paid more than the minimum that the company had calculated it could get away with.
(Well, it turns out the company was stealing tips, so maybe the CEO had the last laugh, but I tried.)
If you think a company is mistreating their employees, don't use that company. At all. The only tip you should be giving employees is to find a better job.
No CEO is getting bent because somebody else is paying their employees' wages. If anything, you've enabled them to continue treating workers poorly for longer.
Point taken about boycotting bad companies, but sometimes it's harder than other times.
The side benefit of tipping well was amusement from imagining the CEO (of a savagely metrics-driven, stack-ranking, generally jerky) company being so miserably ruthless that they're demanding reports on tipping, and getting angry when there's employees/contractors who they can't squeeze any harder.
The new trend in the US is to ask for a tip on the payment terminal before you can enter your card for payment. Starbucks does this and it’s tricky in the drive through when you’re trying to be quick. Trying to figure out how not to add a tip takes time so you just select one of the three tip amounts on the screen to complete the transaction. Other places are doing this too.
Weirdly the solution for Starbucks here is to use their app’s barcode for payment; then tipping is buried. As much as I enjoy Starbucks, it’s such a commodity that it seems odd to tip for. They aren’t really bringing anything to you or cleaning up after you.
They do have well designed clean bathrooms and buying a couple
of cups of coffee you can work all day on a laptop. Much cheaper than an office without commitment although many distractions.
Is it me or does Starbucks coffee taste burnt? I prefer 711 on taste every time. They need to fix that
Which Starbucks have you been to? All the ones I go to have gross bathrooms topped with whatever heavy chemical smell they use to etch the sins off the bathroom floor with.
I totally hear you on the taste, it comes off as smoky to me. The blond roast espresso is more mild on that.
If I use a delivery service that charges a delivery fee (whether on each order or a yearly membership) I tip 1% on the order. That's it.
That delivery fee is supposed to pay the delivery drivers. It's not my responsibility to help some company figure out their payroll.
Likewise I do not tip Uber and the like because I'm already paying them to drive me someplace.
The only place I might actually trip would be a sit-down restaurant with tableside service. And I tip not based on the value of what I ordered, but based on how much time the server spent attending to my needs.
If you took my order, and then delivered it, and that's about it for my interaction, don't expect me to tip a lot - you didn't do a lot of work. Am I demanding and needed all kinds of whatever? I'll tip more.
> It's not my responsibility to help some company figure out their payroll.
If you're concerned about their ethics in paying their employees why would you continue to use the service? Aside from the ethics why would you use a service where quality is guaranteed to be minimal?
> but based on how much time the server spent attending to my needs.
Putting it in a vehicle and driving it to you at home does not count?
You make it seem like it's quantum physics. Anyone can carry a plate to a table, it's one of the jobs with the fewest requirements for the position.
When you are taking a dish to a table, it is a good time to reflect on the decisions you have made in your life that have put you in that position. Perhaps finishing high school wasn't such a bad idea after all.
> it's one of the jobs with the fewest requirements for the position.
Do you know what ServSafe certification is?
> it is a good time to reflect on the decisions you have made in your life that have put you in that position.
In my entire life I've never looked down on labor. If I had no other choices, I'd be happy to wait tables, and I wouldn't think anyone has the right to treat me poorly because they think they're better than me.
> Perhaps finishing high school wasn't such a bad idea after all.
Perhaps not being a detached anti social snob is too hard for the average HN reader.
Is it slave labor or something? Why shouldn't I use the service?
> where quality is guaranteed to be minimal?
You think if I don't pay a tip I'll have minimal quality? I strongly disagree. Companies should just pay regular wages instead of random wages based on the generosity of strangers. If people stopped tipping, companies would have a hard time recruiting, they would raise wages to get enough employees and we would stop this farce.
> Putting it in a vehicle and driving it to you at home does not count?
No, that's the basics of the job. Attending to my needs would be something above that. To bring it back to the server: Taking my order and bringing the food is the basics. If you want a tip there needs to be something above and beyond that.
Are you planning on giving a tip to DMV agent who renews your drivers license? What about the checkout clerk? Do you tip your mailman?
This who business of tipping because food is involved is utterly pathetic. There's nothing actually different about the a food delivery driver vs a mailman.
> Have you ever delivered food for a living?
I have not, but as I said: bringing the food to the table if the basic job. Doing a lot of work means mental work, not physical. i.e. you paid special attention and anticipated needs, i.e. you are more than just acting as a glorified robot.
Put another way: If someone could automate your job with a computer to take orders, and a conveyor belt to deliver them, that's not tip-worthy.
If your job is performed by tons of other people who do not get a tip, you're also not getting a tip. (i.e. food delivery vs mailman)
A tip is for something extra. I had a mechanic who managed a very difficult tire patch repair for me - saved me on buying a new tire. I gave him a tip because he did something beyond the norm - normally they would not repair that tire.
I just ask the person how much they need/want if they are present and only give cash/venmo so it cannot be diverted to management, taxes or corporate.
Like I’ll say “what would be an amount that will solve a problem you’re worried about?”
Usually it’s just “oh whatever you think” so I just do whatever I feel in that case and move on.
Sometimes it’s zero, and sometimes its $200 to the Uber driver with pictures of his sick daughter all over his car.
If the point is to compensate the person because they are wage slave then I feel obligated to directly compensate the employee bypassing the structure they are in
Tip pools are more complicated and I generally ask how the pool is split before deciding
It’s such a scam but most people who are stuck in it don’t have many options
> sometimes its $200 to the Uber driver with pictures of his sick daughter all over his car.
Oh man, that's what I'm doing next. Are there any sick-child-as-a-service providers or am I going to have to go source my own? Can I just use stock photos?
Would you tip more if there was a screen in the back seat playing a slideshow of the sick child with a Sarah McLachlan song in the background? How about a live chat function where you can talk to it before you tip? Maybe an achievement system for repeat customers? Fill out your punch card and you get to inject the cyclophosphamide!
What if we had the state reclassify our cabs as foster homes and put a foster kid in every front passenger seat? Do they have to be terminally ill or can we just shave them and feed them a diet of lead paint chips?
Sorry this startup idea got away from me. I'm calling it Munchausen.ai
I didn't mean to imply your driver was scamming you, just making a joke about Changing the World™ by monetizing and soullessly destroying every social interaction, Silicon Valley style :-)
I had hoped the absurdism of a cyclophosphemide punch card or converting a taxi cab to foster home would have given it away
> Sometimes it’s zero, and sometimes its $200 to the Uber driver with pictures of his sick daughter all over his car.
If I got into an Uber like this, I would get off at the next corner and report it to the company. I want to travel in a car and not be psychologically blackmailed, I find it despicable.
Ride sharing is despicable generally, in large part because they fully crowded out (or absorbed) the independent Taxi model such that uber/lyft is an effective oligarchy
So as a function of life, if you don’t have people who will freely drive you places, and you don’t live in a place with public transport, and you can’t move, then you have no options on choices
Maybe back in 2012 there were people driving rideshare ina way that improved their lives but that number is so low at this point that getting into a rideshare is deterministically getting into someone’s car that doesn’t want to be there
Should I? I tip out of guilt and conforming to social norms. I don't want to look like an asshole too.
I'm getting annoyed by these apps that don't give 15% as an option. They put 22% as the first option, which is insane. And it's no fault to the waiter, it's the default setting that was configured by the store. I had to calculate roughly what 15% was quickly and accept the payment. At that point, maybe I should have just put 0% but then I'd be an asshole, right?
I wonder if physiology is at play here. objectively setting the price at .95x and giving the buyer the ability to incentivize the quality of service by tipping is better than setting the price at 1.15 regardless of the quality of service.
Tipping gives the buyer an ability to incentivize the service provider
Until restaurants are forced to catch up with minimum wage laws, I am more than happy to tip. I need the money less than the people who made the food or whatever for me. Despite this, I'd prefer to patron no-tip businesses because it is more likely that the employees working them are treated and compensated more fairly.
Until the culture changes and merchants start building service costs into their prices and paying service personnel living wages, tip them. Tip them generously. 20% is table stakes for restaurant service; for things like hairstyling you want to tip around 50%.
This is a way to avoid tipping if and only if you're comfortable manually selecting "no tip". It doesn't matter if you're ordering online or at the counter, you will be prompted for a tip these days when ordering takeout, often with some obscene percentage preselected that you have to opt out of.
As multiple people noted in the article, this tendency has done more to exhaust people of tipping than anything else. A tip jar is nonconfrontational and just gives an easy way to give extra if you want to. But these terminals are turning tipping into something that is actively stressful for a lot of people.
The only bright side I see is that by completely exhausting everyone they might be responsible for ending the practice everywhere and forcing restaurants to pay a wage.