Disclosing a mental illness at work sounds like the worst idea you could ever have.
I think it's better not to say anything and, if you wrong someone because of your illness, maybe tell that person in private and apologise. Unfortunately doing that makes it sound like an excuse.
I'm not saying I have a better solution. Some people simply aren't apt for the real world. That's sad but it's the truth.
Bingo. The "real world" isn't some static thing set upon us; we shape it both actively (e.g. fighting for suffrage) and passively (sitting around being sad for ourselves).
Autism is not a mental illness. I am not mentally ill. I was born with a disability which causes social impairments and a host of other symptoms. Being Autistic is beyond my control, and is untreatable other than just trying my damndest to “pass” as neurotypical whereever and however I can. I find it incredibly insulting and damaging to label me as mentally ill.
The modern discussion whether it's a mental illness or not is just tiptoeing around the issue for non-medical concerns.
Mental illness doesn't mean "crazy person", there's a huge number of such cases, and half the population or more is affected by one or more (20% on any given year).
There's nothing insulting or damaging to call someone as mentally ill (except for types who think it means "crazy person" or some such).
In fact, there shouldn't be anything insulting or damaging about being bodily ill as well!
The bottom lime is that autism is associated with certain impairments that affect our mental states (on the spectrum, have a close relative with another mental illness). It's not some X-men like new state of being that people should aspire too, but it's something we should respect, try to heal if we can, and learn to live with and support.
There is no “modern discussion” around if autism is a mental illness. It is settled scientific consensus that Autism is a cognitive disability and NOT a mental illness. This “modern discussion” you speak of consists of a single commenter on Hacker News making an unsubstantiated arm-chair assertion that Autism is a mental illness. I’m sorry to bust your bubble, but you are not important enough to overturn settled scientific understanding and consensus with a single comment on a web forum. Now, I want you to understand that no matter how you classify different disabilities and afflictions inside your mind, when you speak such mistruths you influence and affwct the world views of others. Other people are going to read or listen to your comments and they are going to begin to conflate Autism with mental illness. They are going to loop me in with folks who can be treated with medication, or with psycho therapy. They are going to wonder if I’m going to exhibit symptoms of mental illnesses since I am autistic. They are going to wonder if I am depressed, or have anger or personality issues. They are going to wonder if I am a danger to them, and in turn, that mentality is going to cause direct harm and danger to me and other people on the spectrum. It will deprive us of opportunities. It will lessen our ability to make social bonds, in which we already struggle. Your words have power, and in this case I find it disappointing that rather than use your words to benefit others you have chosen, through arrogance, to engage in half-truths and misunderstanding at the detriment of myself and others. Please, consider if it’s more important for you to put forth an opinion that is actively harmful to others, or to approach your discussions and opinions in a more empathetic way.
>There is no “modern discussion” around if autism is a mental illness. It is settled scientific consensus that Autism is a cognitive disability and NOT a mental illness.
Actually autism is officially described and classified in the DSM-5 Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of _Mental Disorders_.
The rest of ad hominem, I will ignore. For one, I find the language insulting to people with mental health issues (even if one considers autistic people to not be among them), as if they're lesser people.
E.g. "They are going to wonder if I am a danger to them, and in turn, that mentality is going to cause direct harm and danger to me and other people on the spectrum." -- because people with mental illnesses are necessarily of "danger" to others?
>They are going to wonder if I’m going to exhibit symptoms of mental illnesses since I am autistic.
Well, they will be right to wonder it.
Even for the mental illness issues that you would agree to qualify as such (from depression to OCD), are commonly associated with autism, much more so than in the general population.
I hope that as you grow as a person you will adopt a more empathetic attitude towards others, and see how your words harm or have the potential to harm others.
If you want to call Autism a “mental disorder” you would be correct to call it that, as it is a neurodevelopmental disorder and cognitive disability. It is not however a mental illness. The DSM V classifies a lot of different disorders, some of which are mental illnesses and some of which are not. Conflating that something being defined in the DSM V also classifies it as a mental illness when the writers of the DSM V were very careful not to use that language, shows the very misunderstanding which I am trying very hard to show you (and failing) at best, and intentionally misleading on your part at worst.
Just the fact that you feel so offended about being called "mentally ill" shows how you feel about actually mentally ill people, like depressed people. That's all there is to it.
I am not concerned with how I perceive mentally ill people. Mental illness touches different facets of my family in different ways. I am quite familiar with it, it’s challenges and it’s stigmas. I don’t look down on mentally ill people, because I love and am friends with many people who suffer from mental illness.
My objections are due to the societal biases that others hold against mentally ill people. My problem with calling Autism a mental illness is twofold. 1. It is factually and scientifically incorrect. Full stop. End of story. This should be enough for you, but whatever. 2. When you call Autism a mental illness you take a group of people who struggle and suffer and loop them in with another group of people that struggle suffer. Autism has enough social stigma attached to it already. When you apply more social stigma to it by attaching other labels to it, you are actively causing more harm than good.
It would be one thing to offend based on a factual argument, but you have neither facts nor a moral/ethical argument on your side. There is no reason for one to call Autism a mental illness other than a factual misunderstanding of Autism. To cling to that ignorance and claim superiority is both arrogant and egotistical. It lacks any semblance of empathy whatsoever.
Its not factually incorrect whatsoever, you just don't like it. Autism is a mental disorder, no question about it--you even made the point by calling it a "cognitive disabilty." Cognitive meaning "relating to, being, or involving intellectual activity" and disability being obvious. Calling something a synonym of itself and arguing that its a completely different thing is pretty obtuse.
In the sense that they’re different things that can overlap, sure. A disability is any condition (including mental or neurological disorders) that causes significant impairment in one or more activities of daily living. A mental illness is simply a condition that is best dealt with by psychotherapy or other psychiatric treatments. One can be significantly disabled by a mental illness or not.
As a person who suffers from a biologically testable disability, I find it insulting and damaging to the truly handicapped to lump Autism in with provable conditions. I've had a hard time understanding why it's so socially acceptable to wave a flag when convenient and stand up for justice when there's no scientific backing beyond the justification for homeopathic remedies. Society is a complex organism and while we are making inroads - not labeling people as witches and burning them alive - stumping for a wishy-washy grab-bag of symptoms to label a true disability is a pretty hard sell. I'm not claiming you're mentally ill for having autism, but then again sometimes I wonder why people voluntarily choose to take pride in defective functions.
I know in my case it's because prior to finding out about being on the spectrum and having Aspergers I just thought it was everyone else who was defective. For some people on the spectrum including me, the biggest difference was that everyone else was some kind of weirdo who knew rules without being told them. As a kid, you are told to be careful on a road and that's why you are, you are told not to have your hands on a soccer ball but you aren't told make sure to lie to people when it comes to certain conditions. In a way, it's weirder than most people figure out without being told by anyone okay don't tell people that they are fat and don't ask questions about why someone is so certain that their religion is correct.
I had to be taught that but outside of that, most people who didn't spend too much time with me then think I am smarter than average and are willing to rely on me for help with some stuff. I am proud because Asperger's is related to how one's brain is wired if I was embarrassed or considered Asperger's to be defective it would take a toll on my mental health because then I would be thinking of myself of a defective thing and defective things are usually thought of as something that should be thrown out.
Isn't a major part of Aspergers the inability to see that the human mind is irrational by nature.
And sometimes the inability to see that the objective world that exists is not the same objective world that we see. Due to how the brain interprets sensory information from the objective world.
An example taken from your own text:
The reason that you are not supposed to tell a fat person that they are fat is cause by saying you are fat you are essentially pointing to that persons irrational behavior(eating to much).
The fat person does not want to think about their own overweight, it will lead to them start thinking about their own irrationality. Something that will then cause them to feel that they are a failed person, causing negative emotions.
The more that I learn, the more I realize how much medicine as a field is in its infancy. It is far safer to assume that supposed conditions are real and science just hasn't caught up yet.
Autism is the ADD/ADHD of the 'oughts. Overly diagnosed (come on, 1:55, really?), misunderstood (is the creepy guy who stares too much and never says anything a freak or is he autistic?), and often times used like a crutch by those who both want an easy out and/or don't want to take responsibility for their actions (oh, I have mild Aspberger syndrome and your offending me).
The notion of a "spectrum" is ludicrous too, how ever can we lump in someone who's a bit slow yet fully independent with someone like the above poster who's 8/10 year olds can't go potty on their own? This is a disservice to people on both ends of that "spectrum."
> Some people simply aren't apt for the real world
I'm confused by the juxtaposition of this statement and your preceding thoughts- it seems like quite a jump to say what seems to boil down to "Existing with mental illness at work and feeling like you have to hide it sucks" and then expand that to "People with mental illness aren't fit for the real world".
Who decides who gets to be classified as "apt for the real world"? There are a ton of depressed people out there, and for that matter, a ton of people who feel like they got screwed at birth for having the wrong color skin, the wrong sexual proclivities, the wrong family, etc. I think if you were to add up the people who feel like they've had to fight through a disadvantage, you'd find that they're the majority, not the minority of people in the real world.
"In this case, regarding autism, it's called "spectrum" for a reason"
Yes, it may be easy on HN to forget because we get a lot of "high functioning autists" here, but the word "autism" encomposses the 15-year old boy I met stuck in a wheelchair, whose only verbal communication is what I can only describe as a "bark" when something was not to his liking.
"Mental illnesses" do not top out at "a bit quirky". It is neither inaccurate nor insensitive to observe that some people are simply incapable of functioning in the real world. In fact holding the belief that there is no such thing can itself harm people by preventing them from getting the highly-invasive help they need.
That said, if we're talking about people who are in the workplace at all, we're not really talking about that set of people.
I read the quoted statement in the context of the rest of your comment, which pertains to a workplace environment where the subject already lives and works in the real world, so they'd be on the higher-functioning end of that spectrum. There are certainly people who don't fall into that end, though.
I've been forced out of my last two workplace due to being socially inept. I'm pushing 40 and have never had a relationship with a girl or made a friend or been invited to a party.
It's not physically incapacitating until you kill yourself which is the signal society sends you constantly.
Sure, I agree autism can be very debilitating and pose a heavy burden on the individual and the family. In my family we tend to fell on the lighter side of the spectrum.
My 5yo boy is officially diagnosed and he is really smart. My father was definitely autistic although never diagnosed.
I was lucky enough to have a false twin brother (11 months younger) that was the most popular guy at school while I was the weirdest (until I started emulating his behavior in social situations).
Today I believe my brain is just wired differently. Some of the most powerful structures in the brain (the GPUs) are devoted analyzing faces and reactions; in my case they are used for other purposes so I had to learn how to process faces using the CPU which is a bit tiresome but works well enough.
I fall on the "lighter" side too, in the sense that it's not as immediately obvious. It's still been really hard when I have to do high intensity CPU tasks while also doing things that people use their GPU for, like whiteboard interviews or remembering stories
I have trouble perceiving other people's emotions, reading body language and facial expressions; it takes more effort to remember faces/names; have other social oddities; but it is hardly incapacitating and you learn how to deal with it. Insomnia (I'm able to sleep only 4h/day and wake up rested) and having hyper focus for my special interests are some perks.
Insomnia is not a perk. Where did you get this idea from? It's not healthy to sleep less than 7 hours on routine basis. It's irrelevant how you feel during the day.
I had a friend in elementary school that was diagnosed aspergers. I mean... the kid was a bit strange, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't really going to affect him anymore than other people's oddities affect them. He grew up, mellowed out, and is doing just fine. On the other hand, a lot of 'normal' people ended up as complete losers.
I mean... the oddities that led him to be diagnosed included things like lack of eye contact and bizarre play habits. But, honestly, these are rather unimportant in the grand scheme of things, because the 'normies' were missing pretty fundamental, yet non-diagnosable, personality traits, such as ambition and conscientiousness
I've been forced out of my last two workplace due to being socially inept. I'm pushing 40 and have never had a relationship with a girl or made a friend or been invited to a party.
What society wants and signals to you constantly is for you to kill yourself because you're not worth anything.
Hyperfocus is not a specific indication of autism. It is also observed in AD(H)D patients, as complementary mode of attention deficits. If it worked such that you cannot focus on anything, ADHD would be very easy to diagnose.
Thanks, but I was disappointed by this response. Are you able to specify _any_ "specific indication of autism" which is _not_ also observed in people with other conditions? That seems an impossibly strict condition to meet, let alone in the context of spitballing, non-clinically, about ways in which some aspects of traits often associated with autism might in fact be beneficial.
Along with hyperfocus, a tendency toward honesty is another such trait. "But people without autism are sometimes honest, too" would be a comparable response.
"I'm not saying I have a better solution. Some people simply aren't apt for the real world. That's sad but it's the truth"
I agree with the parent that you really want to think through the benefits of reporting a mental illness at work. How you will be treated depends on your employer, your boss, and the HR people involved in the discussion.
However as someone who struggles with a very real mental issue myself and has managed or worked with other people who do, please don't get discouraged like the parent poster seems to be. "apt for the real world" is not a static definition. If you struggle with mental illness, do your best to make the cost-benefit equation of employing you positive for your employer (and society). It won't be easy, but if you find an employer or line of work where you have the flexibility to create some guardrails around your mental illness in a way that allows you to create value, you will be surprised at what you can achieve.
20 years ago I was a failed engineering student who could barely pass most classes but did ok at and enjoyed practical coding. 15 years ago, after convincing a very good grad school that they should evaluate me on the basis of the actual code I had written and my GRE scores, not just my academics, I became a failed grad student who could barely pass many of my classes but enjoyed almost all of them and excelled at some. A decade ago, after dropping out from gradschool, getting fired from my first job as an engineer, and convincing a startup to hire me at less than market rate for a jack-of-all-trades sales-engineer type, I started doing ok and having a ball at work. Most of my colleagues would have told you I was a mediocre engineer, but I created enough value for the cost-benefit balance to be positive even if barely so. 5 years ago, after my painfully discovered role became a traditional desk job due to events outside my control, and I started failing again, I quit my job and started a business. My business has grown to several locations now. I still feel like a failure every day, because I fail at tasks most ordinary people would coast through. But giving myself time by being patient and persisting has allowed me to find a couple of things I am better at than most people and create an organization around me that makes up for my deficits enough to have a positive cost-benefit balance for the world.
Most people who work with me would tell you (and some tell me to my face) that I am simply not apt for the real world. And yet my business employs scores of people and serves a real need in multiple communities. I would have put the odds of this happening at close to zero at almost every point of time along my journey.
Accept yourself, but don't resign yourself to failure. If you fail, learn a little bit from that failure and change the next thing you try a little bit based on what you learn. Don't stop trying to create value for the world. You will find your niche. And, as that brilliant a*hole with evident mental issues said, don't expect this kind of clarity when you look towards the future, these dots only connect looking back after 5 or 10 years.
Thanks for sharing. Like you, I've done plenty of "failing up"[1] in my 20-yr career. I'm also running my own business now and -- though it was a difficult path to get where I am now -- have more income than ever before, as well as more freedom than virtually anyone else I know who isn't retired.
[1] cf "How to Fail at almost Everything and Still Win Big" by Scott Adams
This is the best attitude one can have. The tendency to gravitate towards a self imposed goal/direction and persevere is unlikely NOT TO yield results!!!
>Some people simply aren't apt for the real world. That's sad but it's the truth.
Sure, but as civilized people and not savage beasts, we can accommodate them. In fact if we aren't already under some disability ourselves, we are still just an e.g. car accident away from being under one.
If you work somewhere where that is the situation I would highly recommend trying to find a job that isn't as messed up. In the province of Ontario, employers are specifically needed to allow you to take your sick days for if you are feeling overwhelmed or something else is going on that is bad for your mental health.
Asperger's Syndrome isn't considered a mental illness it's considered a neurodevelopmental disorder. There are many people who are neurotypical who due to circumstances will have trouble with handling interactions with the outside world I don't see why being on the spectrum should be considered something worse than being a person who drinks alcohol and then insults someone.
Oh, I was thinking of the fact that someone who gets drunk at a gathering that is work adjacent who insults people and you don't get fired some of your co-workers might not like you but you can still move up the corporate ladder if it's just a not too often of a thing.
Because a lots of people on the spectrum learned (or forced to learn) how to hide the obvious behaviours and you just can't tell about them.
After I was diagnosed and I invested some time into studying about autism, I realised that there is handful of colleges, who are most probably on the spectrum, but they have a really systematic approach on hiding shortcomings and using autistic traits to their advantage. Also I'm pretty sure I have collegues, who hide it so well, that nobody notices it at work.
This is a strange response. Reporting a bug is likely easier than creating and maintaining a package. It’s also the better solution for users, rather than getting website operators to install yet another lib and then remember to remove it once a fix does land.
If you need the shim anyway to fix it for your users it doesn't particularly matter to you at what point Apple fixes this. The fix will take months to percolate in the best case anyway. It seems you also need an Applie-ID to even report a defect.
So to me the unwillingness to help Apple with this is not a strange response. Especially considering Apple made Safari closed-source.
Writing a bug report is work.
Writing the shim is work.
The bug report doesn't fix the problem right away.
The shim fixes the problem right away.
Reporting the bug will cause a fix for everybody eventually.
Adding the shim will fix it for me.
If we want to be nice to Apple - and get rid of the shim eventually - sure, we write a bug report. But if we can fix it before reporting, that gets priority.
What is extra frustrating is that this is an answer StackOverflow. The whole point is to give clear, educational explanations. Well, the solution is only 21 lines, so why not explain the code snippet instead?
(function() {
function buggy() {
function detect() {
var a = [0, 1];
a.reverse();
return a[0] === 0;
}
return detect() || detect();
}
if(!buggy()) return;
Array.prototype._reverse = Array.prototype.reverse;
Array.prototype.reverse = function reverse() {
if (Array.isArray(this)) this.length = this.length;
return Array.prototype._reverse.call(this);
}
var nonenum = {enumerable: false};
Object.defineProperties(Array.prototype, {
_reverse: nonenum,
reverse: nonenum,
});
})();
